Finding an Audience

[Mischance]

I figure I might get some advice from you guys on a situation I've found so frustrating that it sometimes makes me question why I bother.

Before I begin let me give you a little background. I am a longtime member of another board which originated as a comic book (X-men in particular) discussion board but over the years expanded into something far beyond what it was originally.

Over the years I have jokingly considered myself the Darkhorse writer of the board, a reference to Dark Horse comics, which in my opinion produced quality books, but because they were not as big as Marvel or DC no one but a select few actually read their stuff.

This was sort of the same situation I found myself in because I wasn't writing in the continuity that most people on the board were writing so my stuff seldom got read.

Now almost seven months ago, after a split with a writing group I was a part of I took all the material I'd written under that banner and reworked it creating my own series of stories which I've been posting on the board, and have posted on my website as well, But it seems that even though none of the other projects on the board are moving forward very few opeople are bothering to read my stuff, and let me tell you in six months there hasn't been a week that has passed where I haven't put something out there for their amusement.

I've gone so far as to open the doors so that people can get inside info on what is coming and how things are developing in the Renegade Universe, and even set up a blog which gives daily updates on the stories as they are being written. I've chosen to write about superheroes which is a subject that everybody on the board appreciates and has an affinity for.

My stories however tend to have a little more depth than the typical fanfic and as I like to say I write about people who happen to have super powers as opposed to the typical superhero book.

So my question is why is it so difficult to get people who are actually reading your matterial to take a moment to say "good work" or "that was cool."?

I mean I'm not asking for money or anything and anyone who reads my blog can see that putting a story together isnt easy and yet I get nothing from them. So what am I doing wrong?

[Jen]

I think you've got two separate issues here, the first being how you get people to comment on your work and the second being how to develop an audience.

I don't think either issue is particularly easy to tackle.

Okay, first, the commenting issue. On a wriitng board, I think that casual readers often see the rather involved critiques that are given by the more writer-like members and are deterred from leaving just a "good job." We've had times on AL where people did go in and say "good job." It primarily came from me pimping the writing forums, which I may do again one day.

The second issue is more complex. How do you get people to read your stories? Beg for your stories? Put money down for your stories?

I used to be persistent and got heaps of readers. Now I'm apathetic and have next to none.

Other than innate talent and choosing a subject that appeals to your readers, I'm not sure.

[Mischance]

Actually the Storyboard where my stories are generally posted have never been the place for detailed critiques, unless the writer actually asks for that kind of response, and for the most part getting a simple acknowledgement is good enough.

The annoying issue though is that we get post hits, (as in how many times the post was viewed) and separate from that a reply notation. Post hits can be from people opening your post and closing it or actually reading it so it's kind of not a true measure of how many people have actually bothered to read what is actually on that post.

The issue I have though, and I'm sure it's an issue a lot of writers face who are writing not for profit (which would be a measure of popularity I guess If you're making money off of your stuff) And that is how do you guage is what you are spending your time doing when you are not getting any feedback from your audience.

Now I know I can write, and that's not a boast, I've had past experience with companies coming to me to distribute my writing, so it's not an issue of whether my writing sucks, it's a matter of wanting to get the material read and to some kind of acknowledgement that I'm not wasting my time.

So I was asking for suggestions as to how do you guys go about getting your own stuff read, so that maybe I can adapt some of your suggestions to try to get more people to read and hopefully enjoy what I'm doing.

Writing like any other performing art usually stems from an artists need to share some of him/herself with an audience, and getting Feedback to me is the same as getting applauds or accolades.

Now whether we as artists admit it or not, it is a part of why we do getting acknowledgement for our efforts is why most of us do what we do. So I wanted to know if you guys share my frustration at times about not getting acknowledged for the work you produce and are passionate about. So I must ask "What would you guys suggest that a writer do to get a response other than using cheap tricks and gimmicks to get people to look at and comment on your stuff?"


By the way I'm sorry for being so long winded in my posts....

[jimmy]

The cynic in me says most people need to be told what they like. In order to become popular, you have to already be popular--or get a push from someone who is. Until something like that happens, you pretty much have to rely on word-of-mouth. The way to get that word-of-mouth is through self-promotion. Really, that is the key. Since no one is out there "selling" your work, you have to do it yourself. You have to give people a reason to be interested in it--a reason to care about it.

The ugly reality is that unless you incentivize your work, most people won't give it a second thought, much less provide any meaningful feedback on it. You have to find a way to draw attention to it such that people think they're getting something out of it. Do something that makes the readers feel involved. For instance, set up a story with a mystery plot element, then hold a contest for readers to speculate on the solution. Offer a prize for correct/creative answers. Advertise the hell out of it. Get people psyched about it.

If you have talents beyond writing (or at least passable auxiliary skills), another option is to branch out into other media. Instead of just stories, include artwork, music, video games, RPGs, message boards, etc. etc. In other words, the Rachel's Rail approach. Any one of those media then becomes a gateway to your writing. If people, say, like a video game based on your work, and you plug your stories somewhere in the game (like the title screen, or a credits screen, or whatever), some may be curious to learn more about your world, and go from there.

The biggest problem as I see it is trying to popularize something that's inherently non-interactive (written fiction) in the bounds of a medium that thrives on interactivity (the Internet.) Most people will feel like something's missing.

Also keep in mind that book reading in general is in decline, and is likely to only get worse. As fewer people read narrative fiction, you have to find other ways to draw people into your fictional worlds. There is no doubt people still like fictional worlds, most are just after a more interactive experience.

I'm sure there are people out there who will read your work with no strings attached, but the only way to find them is to advertise, advertise, advertise. If you have Usenet access, you could always post to alt.fiction.original. I got some really good feedback there some years back, and while they can be a bit brutal, it is guaranteed a nice chunk of people will read your stories.

[Mischance]

I've tried the gimmick route by putting cameos in several of my stories since as we've talked about the whole Briefing Room stories thing that became Hell's Fire did a diservice by providing stories that stroked the board members ego's and it's not something I want to do to get my stories read.

I put in the cameos begrudgingly into two stories, and the whole SG thing stems from his wanting to participate in the RU, but I don't think he'll be a contributing writer in it.

I prefer people to read the stories for what they are, not because they might get mentioned in it.

[jimmy]

I wasn't talking about using their characters or mentioning them, but using things outside the stories themselves, such as contests and other forms of self-promotion. Hardly anyone is going to promote your stories for you, so you have to do that work yourself--often to people who aren't interested. So it goes...

[Angel]

I'd actually say don't post too much.

If you have say, a couple of chapters up, people are likely to have a look to see what it's about, and then if they like it, they'll want to hear more. If you post all the time though, people are going to look and go "Man, I can't be arsed reading all that." or "Man, he's posted more stuff. Geez."
People are lazy.
You don't want to saturate your readers.

[Mischance]

I understand that, but I usually post a 3 chapter set once a week, and a story usually has between 34 and 37 chapters on the average which means at 1 chapter block a week a story takes at least 12 weeks to post, which is an excruciatingly long time to wait for a story to end.

I could always bang out the story faster and then have nothing posted for 10 or so weeks, but I really don't want to do that because the long delay between stories on the net might work against me as people might lose the momentum of what I'm doing, or even forget that the project exists.

[Jen]

I couldn't get people to read a chapter a week of my stuff. It was just too much. And posting two chapters at once always essentially killed both threads. People are overwhelmed and choose not to read.

I don't understand how posting, say, one chapter every two or three weeks prevents YOU from writing or causes you to "post nothing for 10 weeks."

If you're writing chapters and not posting them, you will always have something to post, even if you stop writing for a week in there.

Of course, I'm now a bit confused about what medium you're posting in. I would often have ten chapters on my website but only have one chapter up on the boards where people could comment. If people were really intrigued and wanted to read the rest of the chapters, the link was in my signature. There were always a few people who would go read everything I had up, but I didn't expect huge hits in that part of the site.

As Jimmy said, that would require gimmicks and trickery and "branching out into other media" and I'm far too apathetic for that.

[Mischance]

Okay here's where everyone starts to think I'm crazy. The Renegade Universe currently consists of 14 different titles all writen by me, not including whatever mini series and one shot I'm working on.

Now each story as I said runs between 34 and 37 chapters (about 50 or so pages of actual text)

So as I post a story in 3 chapter arcs that gives me about 12 weeks of time while I'm posting a story to work on a future story (I've got an 8 story buffer right now with 8 completed stories that have yet to be posted)

What I usually do is post the story first on the board, and then when it's completed its debut run there I post it on my website for posterity.

Now being a disciplined writer I write about a page and a half a day which means that in 30 days I should have completed a story, not counting rewrites and spell checking. That 12 week buffer as I post a story lets me stay ahead of the game.

So you see if I slowed down to posting one chapter a week of one story I couldn't keep interest in all 14 titles that I'm currently writing

Picture if you will a comic book company that has 14 titles and only produces one issue of one title monthy which is what basically it's like right now, it takes 14 months to complete a one issue cycle for each title involved.

Slowing that down further would probably kill interest in one or more titles that might be weaker than the others.

[Jen]

Okay, so a story is 50 pages with 37 chapters. That's no more than 2 pages a chapter. I've posted 5-10 pages at a time and actually gotten a response, so you'll probably have better luck than I did.

I must admit I'm still confused as to whether the 14 titles are 14 different stories you're adding to or what. Maybe you should post a chapter or three and let us see.

As for getting and keeping interest, I think you should take Jimmy's advice, because it sounds like you're quite happy with the audience you can get on the internet and aren't looking for conventional publishing. I think Angel and I are thinking more along the lines of posting a few chapters and getting people hooked such that they're going to eventually buy the book, which is what I moved to after I couldn't get enough interest in my weekly serial, The Conspiracy.

[Mischance]

It's 14 different titles or the continuing adventures of 14 groups.

Of course that's not to say that I'm not working on something down the road that I'll want published.

My goal is to get enough material out there right now to get my name out to start building a fan base, and then get the three novels I'm putting together published.

If you want though I'll post a one shot story I wrote recently so you can see what I'm doing.

[Jen]

Sounds good to me.

I have to say I have a lot of respect for anyone who can keep 14 stories going at once. I have trouble with 1. I'm doing 3 right now, including Mill Closing, 2006 (http://www.angstlustboards.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=12175), Stomp Dancing for Jesus (http://www.angstlustboards.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=12195) and another one Kiwi dug up today and read out loud. It sounded so good read out loud that I decided to finish it despite having dropped it like 6 months ago.

So, I have two points. The first is, what do you think? Can online people actually keep up with 14 things at once? Is that the way to get your name out? Or is it better to knock people out with four or five really, really good stories?

I've gone from the first extreme to the second, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[Mischance]

The Cynical me says online people don't have the attention span to keep up with a lot of different things at once, which is why I don't put out more than one story at a time.

I put out 14 titles because the wide range of stories gives me a better chance of catching an audience due to offering a range of choices, and hopefully someone reading one title might be drawn to read one of the other titles and so on.

I think in time I might end up knocking off titles because the Renegade Universe is dynamic and characters can move from title to title, as events dictate.

I would be stupid to say I'd rather read 14 mediocre stories to one or two good ones. Of course I do have some stories that are exceptional but those I'm waiting to publish, and while the material I'm putting out there is in my opinion good, they are not the best stuff I've written (after all they are free)

[jimmy]

Originally posted by Jen
I couldn't get people to read a chapter a week of my stuff.

Bzzt!!! My calendar still pops up every Monday morning to remind me to read whatever bit of writing you've asked me to. Only you never ask me to. Remember how I'd read yours, you'd read mine, and we'd both comment? I'm still up for that, but you quit doing it!!

[Jen]

Yeah, I quit writing for a while and I don't keep to a schedule like you and Victor seem to. I'm back writing again now, so you should see some stuff. Consider your Monday assignment for this week to be Saint Amoretta (http://www.angstlustboards.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=12234). And send me something, either on the boards or via PM.

[jimmy]

Now I'll just have to remember to get back into the habit!

[Angel]

Re-reading all this, I think I realised something else...you seem to be writing purely for your audience. You seem to think that if your stuff isn't getting read, it's not worth doing. Personally, I just write for me, for the pleasure of writing and because my world demands it of me sometimes. As odd as that may sound. If someone else gets enjoyment out of it, so much better, but it doesn't really matter to me. I think a lot of us here are in the same boat. I may be rong, but Jimmy in particular seems to write more for himself or his universe than for any particular or potential readers.
I also think it's different for people who really want to make a career in writing, like Jen, because clearly in that case, having an audience base is very important.

I don't know if that made any sense. It's 0700, and I haven't slept. Hoooooooooooooooooo!

P.S. Jimmy, your signature says 'Cock.' *snigger*

[Mischance]

Don't get me wrong I love telling stories, having been a DM, Storyteller etc for almost 30 years and not doing that anymore has left me to channel that creative energy to my writing, but ultimately I do want to branch out and have something published.

That's why I'm so intrested in having my material read so that my name gets out there, and because I think my stuff is as good as some of the stuff I've read online.

[Jen]

Hm, that's how I originally figured I'd "get my name out there." I had a website. I posted writing regularly. And the publishers didn't start calling.

I'm not sure how to translate the internet into sales revenue for a book. If I knew, I'd have a much happier life, I think. Above all, I'm not convinced that getting your stuff out on the internet really helps, at least not in terms of attracting a conventional publisher.

[Mischance]

I actually had Amazon contact me several years ago about distributing some of my work through my website.

But that was years ago and they wanted my X-men fanfics at the time, so I said okay, but you have to distribute my Vampire novela as well, and they agreed to it. I got decent numbers for the downloads of my X-men stuff though, but they didn't advertise the vampire stuff which was far superior to the fanfics in my eyes so those numbers were disappointing.

So maybe I got lucky that time, and maybe lightning doesn't strike in the same place twice, but stranger things have happened.

[Jen]

How could Amazon distribute fanfic? Isn't that kind of like copyright infringement?

[Mischance]

Don't ask me, but I got a letter from Abika.com that was at the time a subsiderary of Amazon.com, and they told me to submit my stuff via E-maoil and they would distribute it, so I did. I made no money off the deal, but Amazon carried my stories and I got almost 5,000 downloads as a result of it. This was about 8 or nine years ago .

I guess because I wasn't making any Money and the run was so small, that I probably slipped under the Marvel radar, or just got lucky, because since then Marvel has tightened its hold on their properties.

There's a however a tremendous amout of Fanfic out there based on their properties so maybe it's something they are not overly concerned with as long as no one is making money off of their properties. .

I'm thankful that It happened and the exoperience pushed me to move forward with my writing, and I only wish that something like that would happen with my original material.